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CounterPoint: The Conclave

We extend an invitation to the weekly Conclave of Men. Do not mistake this for just another “men’s Bible study” or an "accountability group".

Far from it. It is so much more.

Real Questions,
Real Issues,
Real Life,
Real Men!


7:00pm, Tuesday Nights @ 2027 Campus Drive, St. Charles.
Questions? Call 314.329.1802 or 314.329.1878


Review Previous Conclave Topics Here...

The Follower is Reading

The Follower Recommends

You Must Belong to The Club!

Follo­wing Jesus Means Belon­ging to a Local Con­gre­ga­tion so says Rick Warren.  yes, that Rick Warren, pas­tor of the Sadd­le­back mega–church in southern Cali­for­nia.  Typi­cal ans­wers, typi­cal Bibli­cal exe­ge­sis from a typi­cal pastor-type.

When Jesus wal­ked the earth, God wor­ked through the phy­si­cal body of Christ; today he uses his spi­ri­tual body. The church is God’s ins­tru­ment on earth. We are his hands, his feet, his eyes and his heart. He works through us in the world.  We each have a con­tri­bu­tion to make.

I agree with everything except the phrase “the church is God’s ins­tru­ment on earth”.  Where did this come from?  I have yet to find it in my Bible, at least Rick’s defi­ni­tion of church.  Jesus com­man­ded us to love one another and to make dis­ci­ples so we do have a con­tri­bu­tion to make but how did we get from there to today’s mas­sive reli­gious sys­tem of ump­teen variations?

A church family iden­ti­fies us as genuine belie­vers.  I can’t claim to be follo­wing Christ if I’m not com­mit­ted to any spe­ci­fic group of dis­ci­ples.  Jesus said, “Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my dis­ci­ples” (John 13:35, NLT).

The verse is true but his inter­pre­ta­tion is not.   Well, maybe his words are right but he res­tricts “spe­ci­fic group of dis­ci­ples” to mean “local church.”  Sadly, I have been in churches that do not show love for one another, tho they claim to.  I dare you to leave your church, on good terms, and see how quickly you are drop­ped like a hot rock.  Where did all those “rela­tionships” sud­denly go?  The truth is that the peo­ple of this world do not care about what my Mem­bership Card may say.  They want and need to see Christ in my love for them.

A church family moves us out of self-centered isolation.

In truth I see more “self-centered iso­la­tion” from peo­ple asso­cia­ted with an Ins­ti­tu­tion than I do with my non-church asso­cia­tes.  Refer back to my pre­vious exam­ple about the hot rock.

The local church is the class­room for lear­ning how to get along in God’s family. It is a lab for prac­ti­cing unsel­fish, sym­pathe­tic love. As a par­ti­ci­pa­ting mem­ber you learn to care about others and share the expe­rien­ces of others: “If one part of the body suf­fers, all the other parts suf­fer with it. Or if one part of our body is hono­red, all the other parts share its honor” (1 Corinthians 12:26, NCV). Only in regu­lar con­tact with ordi­nary, imper­fect belie­vers can we learn real fellowship and expe­rience the New Tes­ta­ment truth of being con­nec­ted and depen­dent on each other.

Hmm, I guess that is true but is he saying that I can­not learn by simply loving those who do not know Christ?  I have dis­co­ve­red it  har­der to love, and have sin­cere rela­tionships with, those in the Ins­ti­tu­tion because of the higher con­cen­tra­tion of Posers.

No one will ever grow to matu­rity just by atten­ding worship ser­vi­ces and being a pas­sive spectator.

Agree.  Too many pas­sive belie­vers filling too many pews on Sunday.

Only par­ti­ci­pa­tion in the full life of a local church builds spi­ri­tual muscle. The Bible says, “As each part does its own spe­cial work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and gro­wing and full of love” (Ephe­sians 4:16, NLT).

Disa­gree.  “Only…”  Are you kid­ding me?  He says there is ONLY one ans­wer.  And why is my “own spe­cial work” res­tric­ted to the Ins­ti­tu­tion?  Too much Chris­tia­nity is lived out in the con­fi­nes of the church, it never gets beyond the walls, we put in our 2 hours in Sun­day mor­ning and then we return to our real life.  We must inte­grate our faith into our 24 x 7 life.  This is how the world gets impacted.

Over fifty times in the New Tes­ta­ment the phra­ses “one another” or “each other” are used. We are com­man­ded to love each other, pray for each other, encourage…and many other mutual tasks.  This is bibli­cal mem­bership! These are the “family res­pon­si­bi­li­ties” that God expects every belie­ver to ful­fill through a local fellowship. We need to ask those who attend our ser­vi­ces, “Who are you doing these with?”

This is not just a “family” res­pon­si­bi­lity.  This is my LIFE’s res­pon­si­bi­lity.  Other­wise it all about us…us Chris­tians that is. We must “one another” the peo­ple around us?  How are we to make dis­ci­ples if not pou­ring out our lives to those whom God puts in our path?  I guess our only option is to invite them to church so the pas­tor can do his thing.  Argh, this kind of thin­king frus­tra­tes me.

God has a uni­que role for every belie­ver to play in his family. This is called your “ministry”…  The local fellowship is the place God desig­ned for his chil­dren to dis­co­ver, deve­lop and use their gifts.

How about deve­lo­ping our “spi­ri­tual gift” by living out our every day, nor­mal, pos­sibly mun­dane, exis­tence, as devo­ted Follo­wers of Christ?  There are a lot of hours beyond the two hours Sun­day mor­ning?  How about we go into all the world each day as a law­yer, poli­ce­man, gar­bage man, teacher, engi­neer, or stu­dent and take our “ministry” with us?   It must NOT res­tric­ted to an Ins­ti­tu­tion.  Sure it will be evi­dent there but to do other­wise means we live a bi-polar existence..secular ver­sus Sacred…nothing else in our life mat­ters beyond the sac­red 2 hours.  Sorry, I don’t think so.

Even those with a wider ministry need to unders­tand that their first res­pon­si­bi­lity is to the local Body. Jesus has not pro­mi­sed to build anyone’s ministry; he has pro­mi­sed to build his Church.

OK, I expec­ted his tal­king points but this one sur­pri­sed me.  He dis­mis­ses para-church ministry efforts and sub­ju­ga­tes them to the local Ins­ti­tu­tion.  Guess what Rick?  God did not pro­mise to build a local Ins­ti­tu­tion.  The Ins­ti­tu­tion is NOT the Church.

Satan loves detached belie­vers — unplug­ged from the life of the Body, iso­la­ted from God’s family and unac­coun­ta­ble to spi­ri­tual lea­ders — because he knows they are defen­se­less and power­less against his tactics.
Be Very Afraid

Be Very Afraid

Here come the fear tac­tics.  If you don’t belong to an Ins­ti­tu­tion you are going to be taken out by the devil.  And you bet­ter be accoun­ta­ble to a spi­ri­tual lea­der, as he is more know­led­gea­ble and gif­ted and holy than you…or else disas­ter is around the cor­ner.  Since when did the Good News of the Gos­pel involve FEAR?  Scrip­ture says that it is the kind­ness of God that leads a man to repen­tance.  And that the fear of man is a dan­ge­rous trap, but trust in the Lord means safety.   These tac­tics are shameful.

For the record there are faith­ful Follo­wers, not com­mit­ted to the Ins­ti­tu­tion, but com­mit­ted to com­mu­nity and gro­wing in their rela­tionship to the Father.  I sup­pose that Rick may not agree.

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3 comments to You Must Belong to The Club!

  • wow that is truly crazy. I’ve never really lis­te­ned to ser­mons from big­ger churches, but thats ridi­cu­lous! I’ve heard some preachers who i would say have preached wrong ideas, but nothing to some of the things Rick said.

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  • I agree that is crazy. I do believe in the local church as a place of Chris­tian fellowship, and a source of lear­ning about Him, but have always had issues with everything going to the local church, ie tithe money. I’m not a big fan of Rick Warren any­way so it doesn’t sur­prise me that he said something like this.

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  • Ima­gine for a moment if all pas­tors wor­ked jobs and did not rely on “tithes and offe­ring” for their living. I am not bag­ging on giving money but think…how would the modern church be dif­fe­rent? Would it be different?

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